Xdrive rear tyre excessive wear!!!!

[Stupidmia]

Hi

I replaced all my Tyres 13 months ago (the first set lasted 2.5 years) with the same Goodyear F1 Asymmetric 2 runflats!

Firstly, I cant believe the rears need replaced already after about 8k!! I don’t tear around in it (I don’t even in our JCW), but they look like they are scrubbed ‘black’ evenly(ish) across the full tyre compared to the fronts!! The originals lasted twice as long with me driving it no differently as far as I know.

The fronts look like they have plenty of tread in comparison , perhaps 2.5 to 3mm above wear indicators   (but not as much as new obviously), but is it ok to just replace the rears? Or will it affect the Xdrive etc?

dread the thought of having to fork out £££s for a full change ever year😔

cheers

[Bimmer Owners Club]

Sounds like it is due to power being delivered through the rear wheels as opposed to any abrasive road surfaces or similar...if that was the case then the fronts would also be worn the same as the rear as they've done the same distance.

However, it is not making the assumption, as you have already stated, that it is your driving style, more a case of somehow the power delivery being more aggressive than it should be?
I know this is the case with motorcycle tyres where you can rip a rear tyre up in just 2k to 3k miles with too much of a handful on the throttle.

Therefore, I wonder if there is an issue with the drivetrain programming which could be causing this issue?....just a thought.

Technically, you should have the same rolling circumference on all the tyres to run with the X Drive

[Stupidmia]

Thanks for the reply

Apparently my car favours a 60/40 split in favour of the rear...and it is a 330d, so has a bit of power to send to them! So I can understand that rears will not last as long as fronts for me...but half as long as the last set?!? 

I've read about the rolling circumference issues, but also read it was more an issue on the older X3 models? Mines an F31 330d and of course has staggered sizes front and rear. I’ve read on some threads that the F30/F31 rolling circumference issue is not as big a problem...assuming you keep same tyres/sizes and correct inflation pressure I would imagine?

as it stands now, I reckon my fronts will have between 4.5 to 5mm and the rears are at the markets...so potentially @ 3mm difference now,....yet it isn’t throwing up any error messages? So my thinking is if I change the rears, then it will just flip the 3mm difference (until the rears start catching up with the fronts again). If it doesn’t like it or the car feels odd...then I will sort the front 2 as well.

the thoughts about the setup are interesting...maybe need to talk to dealer next time I’m passing...cheers!

I have since noticed the rear tyre wear would suggest a bit of camber in the wheel alignment, as they seem to wear more across the surface from outer to inner edges!!! Is this common for these cars? Or do I need to get something adjusted? Tbf though, I would say it’s a mm difference from one end to other, so maybe not massive!!!

Thanks again ...better get the wallet out (again😢)

 

 

[Greydog]

Hi Patrick

All the x drive cars are sensitive to tyre rolling circumference though I am led to believe by my neighbour (a senior BMW employee) that the latest generation are far more tolerant.

Having said that from my own knowledge BMW are no worse than Mercedes and VW Audi with their need for matched tyres hence BMW recommending * marked tyres to avoid transmission wind up and possible damage. 

Firstly is your set up staggered (wider rear rims) or square (same size at each corner)? If it is staggered then using the correct sized and * marked tyres is more critical, as an example when I purchased my X5 it had Michelin Diamaris fitted, fronts were fine but rears were wearing on the inside edges the selling garage replaced them with Dunlops of the correct size. After having the car a week I noticed when reversing of the drive with some lock on there was a shuddering. I had read about wind up so put a chalk mark on the bottom of the front and rear tyres then rolled the car one revolution of the rear tyre the front chalk mark was about 20mm short of a full revolution scary as I had covered around 500 miles no wonder the transfer box was complaining.I had the rear suspension re-bushed and a 4 wheel alignment and had the selling garage replace the rears with Michelins and no further issues. I have since run non * marked tyres and providing they are within 5mm front to rear everything seems to have been OK (my car is X-drive but early !st gen with fixed 40/60 split).

Cars running a square set up tend to have far fewer issues even with budget tyres as rolling circumferences will generally tend to be closer.

Your car has full Xdrive variable split transfer box so even if you drive it like you have stolen it the transmission evens out torque across all tyres. With accelerated wear I would look closely at the rear bushes (bottom rose bush) and alignment, rear wear is normally toe in rather than camber though the two together will cause the inside edges to go fast. Find some one with a good 4 wheel alignment machine (hunter or similar) get the rear suspension bushes checked/changed (on the X5 they only last 60 to 80k) then a full alignment done if it is a square set up new rear tyres should cause little problem (though non runflats could) if your set up is like mine 20" 285 front 315 rear then stand the new tyre against the front and see what height difference there is Fingers crossed not more than 4 or 5mm.

Sorry for the long winded post I hope it helps

Dave

 

[Stupidmia]

7 minutes ago, Greydog said:

Hi Patrick

All the x drive cars are sensitive to tyre rolling circumference though I am led to believe by my neighbour (a senior BMW employee) that the latest generation are far more tolerant.

Having said that from my own knowledge BMW are no worse than Mercedes and VW Audi with their need for matched tyres hence BMW recommending * marked tyres to avoid transmission wind up and possible damage. 

Firstly is your set up staggered (wider rear rims) or square (same size at each corner)? If it is staggered then using the correct sized and * marked tyres is more critical, as an example when I purchased my X5 it had Michelin Diamaris fitted, fronts were fine but rears were wearing on the inside edges the selling garage replaced them with Dunlops of the correct size. After having the car a week I noticed when reversing of the drive with some lock on there was a shuddering. I had read about wind up so put a chalk mark on the bottom of the front and rear tyres then rolled the car one revolution of the rear tyre the front chalk mark was about 20mm short of a full revolution scary as I had covered around 500 miles no wonder the transfer box was complaining.I had the rear suspension re-bushed and a 4 wheel alignment and had the selling garage replace the rears with Michelins and no further issues. I have since run non * marked tyres and providing they are within 5mm front to rear everything seems to have been OK (my car is X-drive but early !st gen with fixed 40/60 split).

Cars running a square set up tend to have far fewer issues even with budget tyres as rolling circumferences will generally tend to be closer.

Your car has full Xdrive variable split transfer box so even if you drive it like you have stolen it the transmission evens out torque across all tyres. With accelerated wear I would look closely at the rear bushes (bottom rose bush) and alignment, rear wear is normally toe in rather than camber though the two together will cause the inside edges to go fast. Find some one with a good 4 wheel alignment machine (hunter or similar) get the rear suspension bushes checked/changed (on the X5 they only last 60 to 80k) then a full alignment done if it is a square set up new rear tyres should cause little problem (though non runflats could) if your set up is like mine 20" 285 front 315 rear then stand the new tyre against the front and see what height difference there is Fingers crossed not more than 4 or 5mm.

Sorry for the long winded post I hope it helps

Dave

 

Thanks Dave....a lot to consider there.

Mine are staggered and having had the car from new, I have only replaced with the exact same tyres as what they came with factory fitted (F1 asymmetric 2s). They are  255/35/R29 rear and iirc, 225/40/R19 front.

out of interest, I had the tears replaced less than an hour ago and they confirmed fronts had 6mm tread left across them both!!! They also told me that the tyre manufacturer provide a ‘better mould’ For factory fit tyres...so people come back fir them again!

Will look around for somewhere to check alignment....other than that, it’ll be due service in December at the dealer....so I’ll be quizzing them too!!!

i especially want to ask them why they told me at the beginning of Feb 2018 that it would soon need new brake pads and had maybe 3k left in them!!! That was about 6k ago, so I got a price for 4 new ones of a local indie (he’s a friend) and he quoted @£300 (inc new wear sensors if required...else it would be less). Was quite pleased with that...but now I’m even more pleased in the fact that Protyre did a free brake check and said I had 8mm on all pads (estimated 21k left)😮 I find it hard to believe that I have done 26k on them since new and still have that much left? But at least it’s more than the 3k the guy at BMW told me!!!

feel like popping in over weekend tbh😡

 

thanks again

 

 

 

[Greydog]

Morning Patrick

Unfortunately BMW Main Dealers (as do many other Marques Dealers) tend to vary massively when it comes to good old fashioned customer service, sadly most seem to think it means a comfy seat piped Music and a free coffee!! The work shop tends to be totally reliant on diagnostics and actually never repair anything they just change parts at the customers cost. Service staff will look down their nose and tell you fitting a "non BMW" part will invalidate warranties and could cause damage to your car!! They probably don't realize that over 80% of the car is components from outside manufacturers freely available on the open market at a lot less money its just not in a BMW box. Someone has to pay for the coffee

I would imagine the response will be along the lines of "it was the opinion of our skilled technicians sir, of course if sir wishes to take the risk" ? All our parts are specific to BMW after market parts won't be of the same standard!!  

Pagid and Brembo (both have been and are OEM suppliers) both cheaper from the after market and can be brought using a BMW part number from the likes of Euro Car Parts often with discount as can many other parts.

With the tyres most odd, a possibility could be a change of compound by Goodyear? Clutching at straws a bit here are the tyres actually star marked?. My neighbour has an X-drive  440 coupe as a company car at the moment (they change his car every 30k) same size tyres as yours and he does drive it hard 18k and the wear front and rear is pretty much identical as it should be with X-drive. If it isn't suspension wear/setup compound is my only thought.

Dave

 

 

[Bimmer Owners Club]

21 hours ago, Stupidmia said:

I have since noticed the rear tyre wear would suggest a bit of camber in the wheel alignment, as they seem to wear more across the surface from outer to inner edges!!! Is this common for these cars? Or do I need to get something adjusted? Tbf though, I would say it’s a mm difference from one end to other, so maybe not massive!!!

1

Since noticing your response and statement of tyre wear, I would wholeheartedly agree with Dave's comment about worn bushes and misalignment of the rear wheels.

In general, the camber could alter and marginally affect the tyre scrub but if the rear toe is out then this would grossly affect tyre scrub which could explain the uneven wear across the tyre and also the excessive wear on the whole of the tread.

Can only recommend taking to a 'reputable' firm that not only has the pucker equipment (Hunter) and also the personnel sufficiently trained in carrying out the checks (e.g. starting with any adjustments at the rear first).
Maybe worth dropping it in before bush replacement (If necessary) and get some figures to confirm the tyre wear and then drop back for any required adjustments following repair.

[Stupidmia]

2 hours ago, Bimmer Owners Club said:

Since noticing your response and statement of tyre wear, I would wholeheartedly agree with Dave's comment about worn bushes and misalignment of the rear wheels.

In general, the camber could alter and marginally affect the tyre scrub but if the rear toe is out then this would grossly affect tyre scrub which could explain the uneven wear across the tyre and also the excessive wear on the whole of the tread.

Can only recommend taking to a 'reputable' firm that not only has the pucker equipment (Hunter) and also the personnel sufficiently trained in carrying out the checks (e.g. starting with any adjustments at the rear first).
Maybe worth dropping it in before bush replacement (If necessary) and get some figures to confirm the tyre wear and then drop back for any required adjustments following repair.

Hi again

I think a nearby Kwikfit may have the Hunter setup....and there is another in my town that uses ‘SuperTracker’...is that any good?

would a garage be able to tell me if bushes were worn by inspection only? Is it quite common for them to wear out within 26k?

Or are you all suggesting that the bushes be replaced as caution?

the car is covered by extended BMW warranty....is there anything that may be covered by that? 

 

Cheers...Patrick 

 

 

[Bimmer Owners Club]

Firstly, I would not go to anywhere that isn't recommended by others or that specifically deal with Wheel Alignment....Protyre are one such company that are well versed (and trained) in 4 Wheel Laser Alignment.
The bushes are difficult to diagnose when only marginally worn but if the alignment shows it to be out on the rear suspension and you haven't slammed into any kerbs then chances are the bushes are worn.
Finally, I would not imagine that BMW would entertain bushes under warranty as they would be classed as 'wear and tear' but worth a try I suppose

Cheers,   Trevor

[Stupidmia]

3 hours ago, Bimmer Owners Club said:

Since noticing your response and statement of tyre wear, I would wholeheartedly agree with Dave's comment about worn bushes and misalignment of the rear wheels.

In general, the camber could alter and marginally affect the tyre scrub but if the rear toe is out then this would grossly affect tyre scrub which could explain the uneven wear across the tyre and also the excessive wear on the whole of the tread.

Can only recommend taking to a 'reputable' firm that not only has the pucker equipment (Hunter) and also the personnel sufficiently trained in carrying out the checks (e.g. starting with any adjustments at the rear first).
Maybe worth dropping it in before bush replacement (If necessary) and get some figures to confirm the tyre wear and then drop back for any required adjustments following repair.

Hi again

I think a nearby Kwikfit may have the Hunter setup....and there is another in my town that uses ‘SuperTracker’...is that any good?

would a garage be able to tell me if bushes were worn by inspection only? Is it quite common for them to wear out within 26k?

Or are you all suggesting that the bushes be replaced as caution?

the car is covered by extended BMW warranty....is there anything that may be covered by that? 

 

Cheers...Patrick 

 

 

[Greydog]

Hi Patrick

As you have the BMW Warranty I would start there. I would question there Service Manager to gain his opinion as to why your rear tyres should be wearing so far ahead of the fronts.

I accept that the fronts don't do quite as much work but not 50% less, on a rear drive only yes but with X-drive it shouldn't happen. Also certainly your suspension bushes should be OK at 26k (though no guarantee on there not being a bad batch about?) even my 2+ton X5 makes them last 80k and I also tow a horse trailer. So back to either a different compound or alignment being out by possible pot hole damage.

4 wheel alignment machines are great these days either would do my BMW Independent has Hunter which is why I mentioned it. I use him for annual service to keep the book stamped and for jobs like the alignment that I don't have the tools to do myself. 

I have asked my neighbour if they have any tyre wear statistics and will report back if he can find anything (He is BMW UK)

Regards

Dave

[Stupidmia]

Thanks again everyone for your advice😀

Definitely gonna go for the alignment👍 Thinking about all the potholes I have ‘slammed’ into and the many speed bumps I go over each day (especially those ones with the slopes side that force the wheels apart) it seems the most sensible thing to do! 

Asked my usual indie (when something isn’t warranty work) if he had the gear (which would have been ideal as he is very good)...but he only had the laser alignment gear....however, he recommended our local Toyota dealership in West Cumbria  (Myers & Bowman) as the best around here! I used them for my MR2 and RAV4 and found them to be good back then ...the service manager even helped find a local company that would remove the awful RAV4 BSRs (Bridgestone Support Rings) from my SR180 and several other customers!

it will be £102 inc vat and they said it takes about 1.5hrs...so gonna try and get it in next week.

it dawned on me today that someone hit my car and damaged the rear alloy (on the side that has worn the most) a few months before I first changed my tyres!!! That alloy was replaced by the insurance...but I now wonder if that could have knocked them out of alignment? It was actually my rears that were lower in tread than the front then😯

Following that, within 6 months, BMW changed them all under warranty due to them showing signs of corrosion from the centres! Bet they didn’t line anything up following that either!

Cheers

 

 

[Bimmer Owners Club]

that's now sounding more than likely the cause for any misalignment....definitely good to be getting closer to the route cause and rectifying it .... better late than never!

[Stupidmia]

Just picked up my car and got home and had a look at the paperwork I was given re. The 4 wheel alignment and noticed the ‘vehicle’ stated as 3 Series (F30) STD and not F31 Touring XDrive?

now I am wondering if the wheel alignment nominal values could be different between the 2 models?

I spoke to the garage and they said there was various models specified, but they all had similar values, so they took Prolines advice and used the average values! They were pretty confident they have done it correctly and pointed out it was quite a bit out....especially at the rear as expected!!

would have posted a pic of printout but need to work out how😕

[Greydog]

I don't know if there are differences in the set up between the two models, in reality I wouldn't think there is much. I have alignment checked annually at service and the last time I noticed the print out said E70 mine is E53 but checking settings against the previous year there was 1/2 deg on camber at the rear difference. Annual service will be due again next month and I have no noticeably odd tyre wear in 11k so seems OK.

Lets hope this fixes or at worst reduces your wear to a manageable level, thanks for the update it's useful information for others looking for ideas to cure similar issues

 

[Stupidmia]

[Greydog]

Morning Patrick

Thanks for posting the printout

Looking at those readings you should be feeling a difference as well as having reduced tyre wear probably get some improvement in MPG as well. Following your comment that the car was hit on the rear and the fact they cant get full adjustment I would seriously consider a suspension rebuild as something is either badly worn or damaged. The job is not expensive and is a DIY task if you feel up to it the results will make your car drive like new again,

Good that it is almost sorted

Dave

 

[Bimmer Owners Club]

Wow!  the alignment was way out...as Dave quite rightly says, it may be worth replacing any suspect suspension components to correct it all but in the meantime I'm now it has been dialled into where it should be you will definitely notice the difference in driving.

[Stupidmia]

On 10/15/2018 at 7:55 AM, Greydog said:

Morning Patrick

Thanks for posting the printout

Looking at those readings you should be feeling a difference as well as having reduced tyre wear probably get some improvement in MPG as well. Following your comment that the car was hit on the rear and the fact they cant get full adjustment I would seriously consider a suspension rebuild as something is either badly worn or damaged. The job is not expensive and is a DIY task if you feel up to it the results will make your car drive like new again,

Good that it is almost sorted

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

The Lower arm was out by 22 seconds (0.006 deg)...he said it was so little, but the machine is that accurate it picks it up and it gets reported! Not sure how bad that is? 

I have comprehensive extended warranty that says it covers suspension below a certain mileage....however, I have an £100 excess, do depends on what it would cost at a good independent (Couldn’t imagine I have the gear to diy).

on the report it says O/S/F lower arm...which I think may refer to offside front? If so, not sure how the rear damage could have caused that (given it was more a very slow speed swipe to rear panel and wheel)? Maybe just a bad pothole or result of kerbing?

Or maybe O/S/F means something else?

cheers

 

[Greydog]

Morning Patrick

If your Warranty is a BMW AUC warranty I would talk to your service manager and explain the situation push and as they replaced alloys yet clearly didn't check anything else??

If your Warranty is by other's (warranty Direct or similar) I would ask your friendly garage to talk to them on your behalf, garages do better than us.

I am attaching a page from the BMW parts catalogue that shows an exploded drawing of your rear suspension (one side) item 11 is the lower front arm of the rear suspension, if that makes sense to you, it could be slightly bent or the bush at damaged or worn prematurely due to being twisted slightly. That would give the out of alignment reading easily.

I would think the arm is in the order of £30 to £50 plus fitting at your friendly garage. As a comparison a full rear suspension replacement kit for both sides of my X5 was £250 plus 4 hrs work for myself and one of my sons (younger and bendier) then £100 for alignment (rear tyres are £250 a side for mine so worth the effort)

I am a bit OCD (well a lot) when it comes to the grubby bits underneath that make my car go where I point it and stop it when I need to so I would make it all as original settings.

I hope this is a help

Dave

 

RealOEM.com - Online BMW Parts Catalog.pdf